De Profundis, Berliner Emsemble, post-show Q&A

Notes from the post-show Q&A — Jens Harzer and Oliver Reese

Berliner Ensemble's De Profundis at The Coronet Theatre, London, October 2026. Edited notes from the audience discussion. Spoilers.

The production and its theatrical approach

  • The Berliner Ensemble and its heritage. Oliver Reese briefly explained the company's history, from Brecht's The Threepenny Opera premiering at the Theater am Schiffbauerdamm in 1928 to Brecht's establishment of the Berliner Ensemble after his return from exile. The company moved into the Schiffbauerdamm theatre in 1954, and Helene Weigel continued leading it after Brecht's death in 1956. Reese considers performing Brecht's works part of the theatre's continuing responsibility, although he said that Brecht was not a particular artistic influence on this production of De Profundis.

  • The scale and ambition of the production. The Coronet performance was approximately the 32nd since the production opened around a year earlier. In Berlin it plays in the Berliner Ensemble's main auditorium, seating around 700; it had also appeared at the Salzburg Festival. The production lasts approximately 110 minutes and is organised into seven chapters. Reese and Harzer deliberately resisted reducing the demanding text to a more conventionally comfortable running time. Reese described the evening as an experience that could bring both actor and audience close to mental exhaustion.

  • A deliberate refusal to impersonate Oscar Wilde. Harzer's starting principle was that he would not portray a recognisable historical image of Wilde. He wanted to remove familiar associations: Wilde as dandy, celebrated literary personality, author of Dorian Gray, or simply a figure defined by his sexuality. Reese recalled Harzer insisting at the first rehearsal that he would definitely not play Oscar Wilde. They were not making a biopic. Instead, Harzer wanted to approach the experience and emotional substance of the letter as personally as possible, allowing the words to generate a stage presence rather than reconstructing Wilde's appearance or mannerisms.

Language, acting and the rehearsal process

  • Language as the foundation of the performance. Both artists repeatedly stressed the extraordinary literary quality of De Profundis. Their adaptation used a recent German translation by the poet Mirko Bonné, which Reese thought much more successful in conveying Wilde's artistic language than earlier translations. He wanted Harzer to be able to speak, perform and almost sing the text, giving its literary qualities a physical presence. Their admiration for the writing drove the process. Reese recalled that Harzer repeatedly arrived at rehearsals having returned to the book and discovered additional sentences he wanted to include.

  • The act of beginning to speak. Harzer described the opening as a particularly important challenge. The letter begins with a man who has been isolated for a long time and must somehow begin to find words for his circumstances. Harzer saw his own theatrical situation as analogous: an actor alone in an enclosed space, attempting to open his mouth and begin speaking. Rather than demonstrate imprisonment or suffering through recognisable acting conventions, he wanted each performance to begin with a genuine attempt to find a personal relationship with the words. This helps explain the observed stillness, restraint and physical rootedness of the acting.

  • The box as both restriction and freedom. The performance takes place within a square playing area approximately 1.3 metres by 1.3 metres. Reese argued that what initially appears to imprison the actor actually creates extraordinary freedom. Within the space Harzer can lie down, climb, lean against the walls, paint, manipulate objects and discover new possibilities of movement. Concealed openings allow objects to appear almost magically. Reese described the set as an empty book or page on which the performance begins to write itself. He stressed that he had never thought of it simply as a realistic prison cell; one image he associated with it was the last human being in space.

  • Stillness, light, music and the physical score. The staging gradually emerged through experiment rather than from a completely predetermined visual concept. Harzer developed actions involving a bird, painting and physical interaction with the set. Reese worked with a composer who participated in rehearsals and developed music in response to what was happening. Reese wanted music with depth, spirituality and an almost eternal quality; he mentioned the organ music of Interstellar as a reference. Lighting, colours, music, silence and physical movement became ways of giving shape to the language and distinguishing the seven chapters.

  • The form emerged from the actor and the text. Reese described a highly collaborative process in which Harzer's energy, choices and developing performance helped determine where the production needed transitions, cuts, changes of light or shifts in musical texture. The microphone sequence was another discovery made during rehearsals. Reese said that the form was generated out of the text rather than imposed upon it. He also recalled the difficulty of returning after a summer break with only four days to prepare, requiring Harzer to re-enter an exceptionally demanding performance with considerable intensity.

  • The special relationship between director, actor and audience in a monologue. Reese has previously adapted works including Lolita, Günter Grass's The Tin Drum and Roddy Doyle's The Woman Who Walked Into Doors. He explained that monologues create an unusually close director–actor relationship. An actor needs a partner: during rehearsal that partner is the director, while during performance it becomes the audience. However, De Profundis posed a particular problem because it has no straightforward narrative progression. Unlike The Tin Drum, which follows a recognisable life story, Wilde's letter inhabits one prolonged moment of isolation in which memory, accusation, grief and thought unfold.

Wilde's imprisonment, art and the impossibility of return

  • The tension between universal experience and historical specificity. An audience member challenged Harzer's suggestion that the emotional experience of the letter could equally have arisen from a heterosexual relationship. She argued that Wilde's homosexuality and its criminalisation were indispensable to understanding why the letter existed at all. Reese agreed with the historical importance of Wilde's persecution. He described Wilde's prosecution as an attack not only on an exposed public figure but on queer society more broadly. The exchange exposed a genuine tension in the production's approach: seeking a universal human predicament without erasing the particular injustice that produced it.

  • Wilde's imprisonment as the destruction of an artist. Reese stressed the severity of Wilde's punishment: isolation, compulsory labour, and restrictions on books and writing during much of his imprisonment. He saw this as an attack on Wilde's identity and ability to create art. Wilde emerged physically, socially and psychologically damaged, unable to resume his previous life in England, and died only a few years later. Reese found it especially moving that De Profundis, written as a personal letter, became a major literary work in its own right. The production's song and microphone sequence partly embodied the struggle to create something artistically meaningful from suffering.

  • The imagined future at the end of the letter. Reese described the final emergence from the box as expressing something utopian. Wilde imagines a possible life beyond imprisonment, perhaps somewhere like Bruges, and another chance of being together with Bosie. But Reese emphasised that this imagined renewal never materialised. Wilde's health, finances, reputation and artistic life had been devastated. The possibility of a new beginning exists within the text and performance, but the historical biography refuses an easy resolution.

Transformation, audience and the meaning of theatre

  • Harzer's principle that beginning and end must be different. Asked what effect or catharsis he wanted to create, Harzer described a principle important to him as an actor: the beginning and end must be different. He appears to have referenced the poet Friedrich Hölderlin. Harzer related this to the final chapter, in which the performer wets or changes his hair, changes his clothes, adopts a more contemporary appearance and eventually emerges from the box. He described the character as becoming almost childlike, freer and in some respects a different person. The change is more than a change of costume: something has happened during the performance.

  • The ending as an invitation to respond. Harzer emphasised the final movement towards an imagined other person. After spending nearly two hours speaking Wilde's letter, the performer reaches towards the possibility of an answer: the other person has the freedom to respond imaginatively, just as Wilde has attempted to express himself. Yet Harzer also acknowledged the painful contradiction. This apparent opening or gift does not erase the historical destruction of Wilde's body, life and identity. The ending contains both a possibility of freedom and the knowledge that restoration was impossible.

  • The paradox of isolation and audience proximity. Harzer contrasted performing the production in Berlin's large auditorium with the intimacy of The Coronet. He found the smaller space somewhat easier because the physical distances were reduced. Yet he also explained that the box creates a kind of shell, giving him independence from the audience even while he feels their presence. The performer is simultaneously intensely exposed and profoundly alone. Reese particularly appreciated the purity of the production: essentially an actor, language, light and sound.

  • Rejecting a predetermined emotional impact. When an audience member asked what catharsis he hoped to produce, Harzer resisted offering a clear answer. He observed, with some scepticism, that many theatre artists are very good at explaining their intended effects and presenting those explanations to audiences. That was not his approach. His priority was not to communicate a predetermined message but to undergo something through the performance. The transformation between beginning and end mattered more than specifying what the audience should feel.

  • “Storytelling of the soul.” Harzer concluded by distinguishing the performance from an actor simply standing onstage and telling a story or recounting a novel. Such work might be enjoyable, but it was less interesting to him. Here, the task was to begin in an uncertain state, find the words and pass through the different psychological and emotional worlds of the letter. He described this as “storytelling of the soul”. Reese immediately embraced the phrase as an appropriate conclusion to the discussion.

The identification of the underlying passage in Remarks on Oedipus comes from subsequent research, not an explicit discussion of that essay during the Q&A.

Notes on Hölderlin after listening to Jens Harzer

Listened to Harzer post seeing him in De Profundis. He referred to Hölderlin. I was not aware, so these are notes produced for that exploration.

The Hölderlin text Jens Harzer was invoking is Anmerkungen zum Oedipus — “Remarks on Oedipus”. Hölderlin wrote it around 1803 and published it alongside his German translation of Sophocles’ Oedipus the King in 1804. It is short, dense and rather strange, but it contains one of the most influential theories of dramatic transformation in modern European thought. Cambridge University Press

Who Friedrich Hölderlin was

Friedrich Hölderlin (1770–1843) was a German poet, translator and philosophical thinker. Today he is generally regarded as one of the greatest poets in the German language, although that status came substantially after his lifetime. He belongs historically around German Romanticism and German Idealism, but he does not fit neatly into either category. Poetry Foundation

His intellectual surroundings were extraordinary. At the Protestant seminary in Tübingen he studied theology alongside Hegel and Schelling; the three became close friends and participated in the intellectual ferment generated by Kant, the French Revolution and debates about religion and freedom. Modern scholarship increasingly treats Hölderlin not simply as “the poet who happened to know Hegel” but as someone whose ideas helped shape the development of both Schelling and Hegel. Cambridge University Press

He was trained for the ministry but did not want to become a pastor. Instead he worked mainly as a private tutor while writing. During a position with the wealthy Gontard family in Frankfurt he fell deeply in love with Susette Gontard, his employer’s wife. She became the “Diotima” of much of his poetry and of his novel Hyperion. Their enforced separation and her death in 1802 were profound events in his life. Goethe-Institut

His major works include the epistolary novel Hyperion, the unfinished tragedy The Death of Empedocles, extraordinary late poems and hymns such as Bread and Wine, Patmos, The Ister and Half of Life, and his radical translations of Sophocles’ Oedipus and Antigone. His poetry mixes Greek mythology and syntax with Christianity, nature, history, revolution, exile, loss and the problem of whether human beings can still experience the divine. Poetry Foundation

His life then took a tragic turn. By 1806 he was suffering a severe psychiatric breakdown and was institutionalised. From 1807 until his death in 1843 he lived in the famous tower in Tübingen under the care of a carpenter’s family. It is safer historically not to impose a confident modern diagnosis on him; the nature of his illness remains debated. For much of those decades he was regarded as essentially a ruined or mad poet. Poetry Foundation

The irony is that the twentieth century made him enormous.

What Remarks on Oedipus is actually arguing

The essay has three parts: first a theory of dramatic form; then a reading of particular moments in Oedipus; finally a much broader theory of tragedy, humanity, the gods and time. JSTOR

And the third section is where Harzer's remark comes from.

1. Art is not merely inspiration: it has a structure that can be learned

Hölderlin begins with a surprisingly technical idea.

Poetry ought to become more like a craft — mechane. Modern artists, he thinks, talk too readily about a work's “effect” or beauty without understanding the formal laws that produce it. A poet should understand the mechanics of form just as an ancient poet supposedly understood metre, structure and proportion. Cambridge University Press

This is already interesting for theatre. Hölderlin isn't saying:

Feel intensely and something beautiful will emerge.

He's closer to:

The intensity needs a form capable of containing it.

The uncontrollable and the controlled have to coexist.

That tension runs through the whole essay.

2. A tragedy has a rhythm — and that rhythm must be broken

This is perhaps Hölderlin's most famous formal insight.

Events in tragedy do not merely happen one after another. They acquire momentum. Images, discoveries, actions and emotions begin rushing towards catastrophe.

Hölderlin calls this movement “tragic transport.”

But if that movement simply continued accelerating, the spectator would be swept along without ever apprehending what was happening.

So tragedy requires an interruption.

His term is:

die Cäsur — the caesura.

He also calls it:

die gegenrhythmische Unterbrechung — the counter-rhythmic interruption.

The caesura interrupts the forward motion so that, briefly, we stop experiencing merely one event followed by anotherand perceive the event itself. ORA

That is a very modern theatrical idea.

Think of:

momentum → interruption → recognition → transformed momentum.

The interruption isn't outside the rhythm.

The interruption is part of the rhythm.

3. In Oedipus, Tiresias is the caesura

Hölderlin identifies the prophet Tiresias as performing this function.

Oedipus is racing towards knowledge. He wants the murderer of Laius found; every answer produces another question.

Then Tiresias appears.

His intervention does not solve the drama. Instead it changes its axis.

Before Tiresias, Oedipus is the brilliant king investigating a crime.

After Tiresias, the investigation increasingly becomes an investigation of Oedipus himself.

Formally, Hölderlin thinks Tiresias' appearance divides and balances the tragedy. Because Oedipus accelerates heavily towards its conclusion, the caesura occurs relatively early; in Antigone, whose rhythm is different, the corresponding interruption comes later. Rhuthmos

So the caesura is both:

dramatic structure

and

existential rupture.

4. Oedipus' tragedy is partly a tragedy of knowing too much

Hölderlin's interpretation of Oedipus is unusual.

Oedipus does not simply make a mistake because he lacks knowledge.

His characteristic danger is almost the opposite:

he cannot stop interpreting.

Hölderlin says that Oedipus interprets the oracle too infinitely. Instead of responding within ordinary civic limits, he pursues its meaning absolutely and relentlessly. dokumen.pub

This gives the tragedy a philosophical dimension.

Oedipus wants complete consciousness:

Who did it?
Why?
What happened?
Who am I?
What is the truth?

And he succeeds.

That is precisely what destroys him.

One modern account of Hölderlin's position nicely describes Oedipus' quest as an almost insane drive towards complete consciousness: philosophy's desire for absolute knowledge is fulfilled only at the price of the person seeking it. Cambridge Assets

That idea is very Hölderlin:

knowledge is necessary, but complete possession of reality may exceed what a human being can bear.

5. Tragedy occurs when human and divine come impossibly close

Here Hölderlin becomes much stranger.

He describes tragedy as a moment in which human beings and the divine become excessively joined.

The human being reaches beyond ordinary human limits.

But this cannot endure.

The excessive union has to be corrected by an equally radical separation.

One of his central formulations is essentially:

limitless union purifies itself through limitless separation. dokumen.pub

Oedipus therefore passes through something much larger than a reversal of fortune.

He begins as someone extraordinarily close to mastery:

king, solver of the Sphinx, protector of Thebes, interpreter of signs.

He ends as someone radically dispossessed:

blind, exiled, stripped of status, knowledge having destroyed the identity that sought it.

There is no easy return to equilibrium.

6. Then comes Hölderlin's extraordinary idea: God and man become “unfaithful” to one another

This is one of the hardest but most important parts of the essay.

At the extreme point of tragedy, Hölderlin says, human beings and the divine turn away from one another.

The human forgets himself because he is entirely caught in the moment.

God becomes, as it were, nothing but time.

They become “unfaithful” to one another.

Hölderlin does not mean moral infidelity.

He means that the old relationship between human and divine can no longer continue.

There is a rupture.

The world before the catastrophe and the world afterwards belong to different orders. Goldsmiths Research Online

And this brings us directly to Harzer.

7. “Beginning and end cannot rhyme”

Hölderlin then writes the line Harzer was remembering.

The essential formulation is:

“Anfang und Ende sich … schlechterdings nicht reimen läßt.”

Literally:

“Beginning and end can no longer rhyme with one another.”

And then Hölderlin says that because the human being must follow this “categorical reversal” — kategorische Umkehr —

afterwards he cannot be what he was at the beginning. Goldsmiths Research Online

This isn't simply character development.

It's much more radical.

Something happens in tragedy that breaks continuity.

You don't go:

A → B → C → A improved.

You go:

A → B → rupture → something that can no longer be A.

That is Hölderlin's categorical reversal.

What “categorical reversal” means

The word categorical carries some Kantian philosophical weight, although I would not reduce it to Kant's “categorical imperative.”

It means something closer to:

fundamental, unconditional, applying to the structure of experience itself.

The world has not merely changed within time.

Time itself seems to have turned.

There is a before and an after that cannot simply be reconciled.

Hence:

Beginning and end cannot rhyme.

Harzer's acting principle makes much more sense in this context

When Harzer said:

“There is one sentence for me as an actor very important. The beginning and the end, they have to be different. Said Hölderlin…”

he wasn't quoting a neat maxim like:

“A character should undergo an arc.”

He was invoking a much more radical conception of theatre.

The actor enters into a sequence of experiences.

At some point there is a caesura — an event, discovery, reversal, break.

And once the actor/person has genuinely passed through it:

he cannot simply be who he was before.

Hence the performance has to leave some trace in the body, voice, relation to space or consciousness of the figure.

That maps extraordinarily well onto the De Profundis performance you saw.

At the beginning:

contained → enclosed → scarcely moving → finding words → imprisoned

At the end:

washed → changed clothes → altered hair → almost childlike → standing → leaving the box → addressing Bosie/the other directly.

The visual transformation is not decorative.

It embodies Hölderlin's proposition:

The ending must not rhyme with the beginning.

Why Hölderlin matters beyond this one essay

His importance comes from several different directions.

As a poet

His late poetry radically stretched German syntax. Greek forms and sentence structures enter German; clauses become suspended; ordinary grammar is disrupted; gods, rivers, landscapes and historical time become almost physical presences.

This difficulty was initially taken as evidence of illness. It later became one reason modern poets revered him. Poetry Foundation notes his major influence on figures including Rilke and Paul Celan. Poetry Foundation

As a philosopher

His philosophical fragments helped alter the trajectory of German Idealism.

Against Fichte's attempt to ground philosophy in the self-conscious “I”, Hölderlin argued that subject and object must already presuppose a more fundamental unity — Being — which cannot itself simply become another object of consciousness.

This thinking influenced Schelling and helped shape the intellectual environment from which Hegel's philosophy emerged. Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

That is a remarkable fact about him: a man remembered primarily as a poet helped shape the philosophical movement that produced Hegel.

As a theorist of art

His idea of the caesura became very influential.

The artwork is not simply harmonious.

Its truth may appear precisely when harmony breaks.

That becomes important later for Walter Benjamin, modernist aesthetics, critical theory and ideas of rupture and discontinuity. OUP Academic

For Heidegger

Hölderlin became absolutely central to Martin Heidegger.

From the 1930s onwards Heidegger repeatedly lectured on Hölderlin and increasingly treated poetry — particularly Hölderlin's poetry — as capable of revealing aspects of being that conceptual philosophy could not reach. Some accounts of Heidegger go as far as saying that much of his later philosophy becomes an extended engagement with Hölderlin. Cambridge University Press

This relationship is philosophically enormously important, although Heidegger's appropriation of Hölderlin — including national and historical claims about Germany — is itself something later scholars treat critically.

For twentieth-century poetry

The rediscovery of Hölderlin around the beginning of the twentieth century, particularly through Norbert von Hellingrath's editions, turned him from a marginal, supposedly mad Romantic into a central ancestor of modernism. Stefan George's circle, Benjamin, Heidegger and later Celan all engaged deeply with him. Cambridge University Press

The really distinctive Hölderlin idea

…to compress his worldview into one tension, it would be this:

Human beings long for unity — with nature, with another person, with society, with the divine, with themselves — yet mature existence requires us to endure separation rather than falsely abolish it.

You find different versions of that throughout his work:

unity / separation
home / exile
human / divine
Greece / modernity
nature / consciousness
love / loss
presence / absence
beginning / ending

And crucially, the answer is usually not simply to restore the lost first term.

Something must be passed through.

That is why the Hölderlin quotation works so well for Harzer:

You don't want the ending to restore the beginning.
The experience should have made restoration impossible.

….Harzer means by “storytelling of the soul.” The story isn't primarily the sequence of external facts. The story is the irreversible difference between the person who enters and the person who leaves. Goldsmiths Research Online

Save the Cat, Snyder's movie structure outline

I was explain how Save the Cat worked to a friend and thought I’d outline it in more details (with GPT) and summaries it here.

Save the Cat! by Blake Snyder is a cheeky, brutally pragmatic breakdown of Hollywood storytelling.

1. The Core Philosophy

Snyder’s thesis is simple:

“Audiences love heroes who do something selfless early on — they save the cat.”

That small, human act earns audience empathy.
The rest of the book expands that logic into a system: structure, genre, theme, and tone must all serve audience connection. Snyder’s genius was to codify that connection into an easy-to-follow, relentlessly commercial structure.

2. The “Save the Cat” Beat Sheet

This is the skeleton for nearly every Hollywood movie Snyder reverse-engineered. Each “beat” roughly corresponds to a page count (assuming a 110-page screenplay).

Opening Image – The first impression of tone, world, and protagonist before transformation.

  1. Theme Stated – Someone hints at the story’s moral or central question, often in dialogue.

  2. Set-Up – Introduce key characters, show what’s missing in the hero’s life, and establish stakes.

  3. Catalyst – The inciting incident: something disruptive happens that kicks the story into motion.

  4. Debate – The hero resists the call, doubts themselves, and weighs options.

  5. Break into Two – The decision point where the hero commits to the journey and enters a new world.

  6. B Story – A relationship subplot, often romantic or emotional, that carries the theme.

  7. Fun and Games – The “promise of the premise”; the central gimmick or joy of the story.

  8. Midpoint – A false victory or false defeat; the stakes sharpen, often with a twist or revelation.

  9. Bad Guys Close In – Internal and external pressures rise; allies fall away; antagonistic forces strengthen.

  10. All Is Lost – A moment of seeming death or total failure — mentor dies, plan collapses, love lost.

  11. Dark Night of the Soul – The emotional low; the hero confronts despair and the deeper meaning of their struggle.

  12. Break into Three – A new idea or insight emerges from uniting the A-story and B-story; the hero regains purpose.

  13. Finale – The protagonist applies what they’ve learned, overcomes old flaws, and resolves the main conflict.

  14. Final Image – A mirror of the opening, showing transformation and emotional closure.

3. The “10 Genres” (Snyder’s Story DNA)

Snyder hated traditional genres like “rom-com” or “thriller.” He created story function genres instead — types of emotional engines:

  1. Monster in the House – Evil + sin + confinement (e.g. Jaws, Alien).

  2. Golden Fleece – A journey or quest story (The Wizard of Oz, O Brother, Where Art Thou?).

  3. Out of the Bottle – Magic wish or transformation (Liar Liar, Shrek).

  4. Dude with a Problem – An ordinary person vs. extraordinary circumstance (Die Hard, 127 Hours).

  5. Rites of Passage – Life transitions: age, death, divorce (American Beauty).

  6. Buddy Love – Relationship as central conflict (When Harry Met Sally, Toy Story).

  7. Whydunit – Character-driven mystery (Chinatown, Gone Girl).

  8. The Fool Triumphant – Underdog wins by being authentically themselves (Forrest Gump).

  9. Institutionalized – Individual vs. system/group (MASH*, The Devil Wears Prada).

  10. Superhero – One extraordinary person in an ordinary world (Spider-Man, Erin Brockovich).

Each genre has required “ingredients” and emotional arcs.
For example, Monster in the House always involves:

  • A confined space

  • A monster

  • A sin or transgression that “invited” the monster

4. Key Structural Rules & Mantras

  • “Give me the same thing… only different.”
    Audiences want fresh spins on familiar setups — not pure novelty.

  • “Double mumbo jumbo.”
    Don’t introduce two different fantastical premises. Stick to one “magical” conceit.

  • “The Pope in the Pool.”
    Hide exposition in an engaging scene (Pope swimming laps while revealing plot).

  • “The Covenant of the Arc.”
    Your hero must change. Endings must show emotional evolution, not just victory.

  • “Watch out for the Deadly Logline.”
    Your movie’s one-sentence pitch should express irony and hook emotion immediately.

5. Why It Works (and Why Purists Hate It)

Why it works:

  • It codifies what audiences unconsciously expect.

  • It’s short, funny, and usable tomorrow.

  • It creates rhythm: change every 10–15 pages keeps attention.

Why critics groan:

  • It can breed formulaic storytelling.

  • It’s obsessed with commercial beats rather than aesthetic or psychological nuance.

  • It prioritises structure over voice.

But used intelligently — as a skeleton, not a straitjacket — it’s an immensely effective framework for both screen and game narrative.

Devoted and Disgruntled 2025 sessions

I popped into this theatre openspace UnConference event. It’s Devoted and Disgruntled and has been going on 25 years.  Here are some of the discussion that took place.

Link to the DnD site.

What's your exit strategy?

  1. AI actually stands for "Artificial Impersonation" – What is AI really and why should we be creatively worried and excited about it?

  2. Is it ever too late to be interviewed by Smash Hits?

  3. Why do we do what we do?

  4. If I’m not doing anything more "important", I’d better sit + write my play

  5. Creative role sharing – Who is doing it well? Is 2 really company?

  6. How can we start to help UK society see the value of the arts again?

  7. How are artist and audience development linked?

  8. Opera & classical music – How do we drag the industry forward with us?

  9. An alternative national theatre??

  10. Confident authenticity in an industry that feels judgmental + observed

  11. Bombard me about the bunch of bonkers characters (that I’m still discovering) in a play about anti-Asian racism

  12. Creation beyond the border – Funding, etc.

  13. Can we clean up the Spider Network? (Performing Arts Infrastructure)

  14. Self-producing artists: How are you doing? (And how are you doing it?)

  15. The Gathering (Improbable’s quest for a home) – Updates – Possibilities – Requests

  16. How can we find balance in work + our own creative fulfilment – Filling our wells

  17. Access/inclusion from the start – Not a bolt on!

  18. Psychotherapy + improvisation – The joins

  19. Tea with the gays / coffee with the queers

  20. I’m an artist in recovery: How to survive a toxic creative process

  21. Harness the absurd

  22. What are we doing about / with directors these days?

  23. When theatre is building the plane whilst already flying it, how do we teach board & funders not to be afraid of heights?

  24. Who does the UK theatre sector think it’s talking to?

  25. Training pathways in tech for performing arts for those 25+ and career shifters?

  26. A manifesto for the arts

  27. What can theatre do to address the mental health crisis affecting young people?

  28. The repository for half-finished ideas

  29. 20 years of D and D – How was it for you? (Oral histories)

  30. If we could invent an arms-length funding body (Arts Council) fit for the next bit of the 21st C, what would it be like?

  31. What do artists want an arts space to be?

  32. How might we continue to collaborate beyond this weekend?

  33. R&D – Hopes, dreams & nightmares

  34. AI and/or Art: How do we work with or against AI?

  35. The future of musicals – Have your say! Bleak or bright?

  36. Theatre – What’s the connection?

  37. I feel so disconnected from my ability to make theatre. Should I reconnect and if so, how?

  38. Menopause (peri + post) as creative transition

  39. British venues love international work. How do we get them to love migrant artists?

  40. Lunch + imagination games

  41. Climate justice – Coney last performance workshop

  42. Art/performance to counter authoritarianism

  43. Politics?

  44. Manifesting workshop

  45. Tea + empathy – Weekly peer meetup at Edinburgh Fringe 2025

  46. Finding time to make & not just write funding bids

  47. Is the arts sector filling gaps in NHS mental health provision? If so, how do we proceed ethically?

  48. How can theatre be used for rural development?

  49. Invisible fringe – How can we get the attention from press + audiences that fringe theatre deserves?

  50. Eldership and the future of creative participation in music + performance

  51. How do we support each other to take risks?

  52. Help me to put dreams and a heart into my dolls

Bluets, meditation on seeing the theatre production

Bluets dances with a multitude of threads. Threads that fray.  Threads that loop. Threads that splice. Threads that twist. 


One thread is a form of love story which is also a sex story which is also a blue story which is also an identity story which is also a grief story which is also a loss story. 


Maggie Nelson’s Bluets is structured as 240 numbers prose-poem-aphoristic-sentence-paragraphs.


The numbers are linear.  The threads are non-linear. 


I see within Nelson’s Bluets a kaleidoscope of threaded images. Micro-vignettes. Fractured tableaus. 


I say I see


as this is the readers’ share, the audiences’ share, the viewers’ share of the work. 


In Katie Mitchell’s Bluets I see these vignettes created into physical on stage tableaus. Images projected on screen. Images made by the performers. Vignettes shapes by the stage hands. The stage hand who cast shadow and light and absence, who cast negative space and liminal space and forgotten space. 


In Margaret Perry’s Bluets I hear the breaks the caesuras the cuts for the performers. 


All of these Bluets orbit the feminist. 


In Katie Mitchell’s and Margaret Perry’s Bluets I see no numbers. In that Bluets, the one I saw and experience in that time and space, time move forward - more or less linear - although with skips and jumps and pauses.  


Perhaps forward numbers are unneeded if time parses forwards. 


Yet this Bluets drifted in and out of kairos time. Where time flows and stops, not experienced in a line. 



In Nelson’s Bluets some words are intensely blue. More blue than the images in performance. Yet some  images in the performance Bluets transcend the text or at least derive from a world at least as deep and expressive as the words. 


On occasion the performers are lost in their image. Eyes zoned on their making on the camera on the screen and rarely the audience watcher. 


The lost moments past quickly. I see them as from a liminal between space.  Perhaps one could seem them as the space between. 


At the level of the idea these concepts swirl around me


Sex and love

Identity

Disability

Grief

Blue 


You will find more or less, and different for sure.


In Nelson’s Bluets: 


Numbered Fragments: Each fragment is sequentially numbered from 1 to 240. This numbering provides a sense of progression, even though the content within the fragments often jumps between different times, places, and ideas.


Prose Poetry: The fragments blend elements of prose and poetry, featuring lyrical language, vivid imagery, and poetic rhythm. This form is in itself unique. The structure allows Nelson to weave together personal memoir, philosophical musings, and cultural analysis


Non-linear Narrative: The fragments do not follow a traditional narrative arc. The fragments are associative and often jump between different subjects and moments in time. This mirrors the way memories and emotions can be experienced in a non-linear fashion.


Intertextuality: The fragments frequently reference other works of art, literature, philosophy, and personal anecdotes. These references create a rich intertextual tapestry, adding depth and resonance to the themes.


From the view of grief:


Personal Loss: The color blue is a central metaphor.  There is a riff on feelings of sorrow and longing following the end of a romantic relationship. The fragments capture the rawness of heartbreak and the enduring pain that accompanies the loss of a loved one.


Philosophical Inquiry: Te work it not only a riff on  personal grief but also interrogates the nature of grief itself. How grief shapes our understanding of the world, our relationships, and our sense of self. She examines how grief can be both a deeply personal experience and a universal human condition.


Sensory and Emotional Connections: Grief  connects to sensory experiences and emotional responses. 

The work attempts the paradox to  articulate the inexpressible aspects of grief.


Fragmented Narrative: The fragmented structure mirrors the disjointed and often chaotic nature of grief. (Of love, of disability, of identity). The non-linear format jumps between memories, reflections, and observations. Grief can jump and spiral like this. As can love. 


Healing and Continuity: The work is steeped in grief. Yet I see it also touches on the process of healing. Grief does not have a neat resolution. Grief can be a part of one's ongoing life. The act of writing and reflecting becomes a way to live with and through grief.


On feminism and identity


Personal Autonomy and Female Voice: The power of the female voice.


Exploration of Female Desire: The complexities of female desire, addressing themes of love, longing, and sexuality from a distinctly female perspective.


Interrogation of Gender Norms: Nelson subtly critiques societal expectations and norms surrounding gender and relationships. The audience is caught on the phrase of a passive top and an active bottom.


On Disability:


Personal Connection to Disability: There is a portrayal of a friend's (?) paralysis. This relationship provides a lens through which she explores the physical and emotional impacts of disability on both the individual experiencing it and their loved ones.


A riff on  the daily realities and emotional complexities faced by disability . 


Interconnectedness of Grief and Disability: The  onset of disability can lead to profound personal and relational grief, as both the individual and their loved ones mourn the loss of prior abilities and navigate new realities.


Philosophical Reflections on the Body: Philosophical musings on the nature of the body, its vulnerabilities, and its resilience. How disability can alter one's perception of their own body and its capabilities, prompting broader questions about identity and self-acceptance.


Visibility and Invisibility: The fragments touch on the themes of visibility and invisibility related to disability. 


Interdependency and Care: How relationships are reshaped by disability. A friend and caregiver, highlights the mutual dependence and emotional labor involved in such dynamics.


On Blue: 


Emotional Resonance: Blue serves as a symbol for various emotional states, particularly those associated with melancholy, longing, and grief…. a vessel for expressing sorrow, heartache, and a sense of loss.


Sensory and Aesthetic Appreciation: The beauty of blue in nature, art, and everyday objects, - its ability to evoke profound emotional responses. The visual and tactile allure- connections between the color and moments of aesthetic pleasure.


Philosophical Inquiry: Blue is a subject of philosophical inquiry. The nature of color itself, its impact on perception, and its role in shaping human experience. How blue can represent both presence and absence, depth and distance.


Interconnectedness with Memory: Do I see that blue is connected with memory here? blue evokes and anchors recollections - those related to love and loss. Blue becomes a conduit for accessing and articulating past experiences. 


Symbol of Desire and Longing: Blue symbolizes desire and longing - a sense of yearning, whether for a lost lover, a past moment, or an unattainable ideal. The color captures the essence of unfulfilled desires and the bittersweet nature of longing.


Cultural and Historical Contexts: the work situates the exploration of blue within broader cultural and historical contexts. Referencing various works of art, literature, and philosophy that engage with the color blue, from artists like Yves Klein to poets like Wallace Stevens. 


I note in blue there is very little (or arguably no) black.



Is Bluets the performance or the poem -  good or bad ? I can not answer that.

Should you see or read the work ? 

I think if these ideas - grief - love - sex - identity - poetic form - language form - colour - culture - philosophy - queer - non-queer - engage you or you want to be engaged by them then this is a work to be engaged with by deep thinking artist creators at the height of their powers.


Sustainability Podcast: Arts Council, Mya-Rose Craig, Ellie Harrison and Benjamin Yeoh

Artists, Activists on Climate and enviroment. In this episode, join Mya-Rose Craig, Ellie Harrison and Benjamin Yeoh as they explore what is the connection between art and climate change and how can the storytelling skills of individual artists drive structural change at a corporate level.

Featuring:
• Mya-Rose Craig - ornithologist, environmentalist, diversity activist as well as an author, speaker and broadcaster
• Ellie Harrison - artist, activist & author
• Benjamin Yeoh – playwright, investor and podcast host

Summary (via AI):

Here is a summary of the key points from the conversation:

- This is a podcast discussing environmental responsibility in the arts and culture sector. The three guests are Mya-Rose, Ben, and Ellie.

- They discuss what environmental responsibility means to them personally. Mya-Rose talks about campaigning and raising awareness, as well as encouraging local environmental action like rewilding. Ben discusses leading by example but also influencing systems change. Ellie tries to live modestly and thinks about the impact of her actions.

- When asked how they embed environmental ideas in their work, Mya-Rose talks about engaging youth from underrepresented backgrounds with nature. Ben discusses incorporating climate themes in his theatre work and engaging with companies on sustainability in his investment work. Ellie campaigns on public transport issues and divestment.

- They discuss different forms of environmental action from large protests to local community projects. Mya-Rose advocates bigger changes like ethical banking as well as local rewilding. Ben focuses on influencing senior leaders.

- On why the cultural sector should take action, they agree it should lead by example and reflect these issues since they affect everyone's lives.

- They debate how to best communicate to affect change. Mya-Rose discusses effective social media activism. Ben focuses on influencing leaders. Ellie uses humor and music in her art and activism.

- For actions people can take today, they suggest political engagement, ethical purchasing/investment, storytelling, and getting involved locally.

- When asked what support would help cultural organizations, they suggest identifying environmental impacts, getting guidance to address them, and funding for climate-related art projects.

- For art that affected change, they cite nature documentaries, conceptual art exposing pollution/hypocrisy, and films spotlighting funding by polluting industries.

Transcript

Presenter: Hello and welcome to the IP Pod from the Arts Council which set out to unpack and illustrate the fundamental ideas that underpin the four investment principles. Today we’re looking at the subject of environmental responsibility. What is the connection between art and climate change and how can the storytelling skills of individual artists drive structural change at a corporate level. Before we get into it more deeply with our specialist panel we’ve asked a couple of people from the arts world to weigh in on what environmental responsibility means for them.


On a base level as a human being I guess it means carrying out our lives causing as little negative impact as possible - at minimum, even better actively trying to leave the world better than we found it both in our personal and work lives. I guess from an arts perspective we should realise the power the arts and culture has to influence and inspire behaviour change in large amounts of people and so we’ve got a responsibly to use that as a force for good and positive action but we’ve also got a responsibility to work with other industries to make sure what we’re doing is authentic and grounded in science.


Aileen Ging: The one thing artists should be in terms of thinking about or doing with sustainability is promoting the idea collective action for systematic change. For too long we’ve put emphasis on individuals actions around reusing, recycling, remaking and of course there’s a place for that but actually the change really is to send the message that we can only do so much. This is not about individual action, this is about collective action, facing up to corporations, to governments, holding them accountable to the extractive practices that don’t respect that the earth has limitations and moving away from the growth mindset. We don’t have to get bigger and bigger and this is really important actually for funders such as the Arts Council England is to send this message as well themselves. In the end it’s all intertwined, whether we’re talking about social and climate justice, the root causes are the same. It’s a mentality that thinks you can do more for less and that is extractive and that’s the bottom line.


Presenter:  That was Aileen Ging, sustainable operations lead for the Wild Rumpus Arts Organisation and Alia Alzougbi, cultural strategist, storyteller and facilitator. Now, to explore the subject further we’ve gathered together three people with unique perspectives but a shared understanding of the issue at hand. We’ve given them a pile of envelopes containing prompts and questions and the result is a conversation that is both urgent and ultimately empowering. The first of our guests is Mya-Rose Craig, sometimes known as Bird Girl who at 21 represents a new generation of artist activists all deeply invested in the future of the natural world. Mya-Rose has already turned her childhood passion for ornithology into an inspirational career and she recently published her memoir, also titled Bird Girl. Next up you’ll hear from Glasgow based Ellie Harrison who’s playful and politically engaged work takes many forms from installations to events and music. Within the diversity of her practice, Ellie has also discovered the value of hyper focus on local issues, namely public transport, via her British Rail campaign. Finally we have invaluable input from British Chinese playwright and theatre world renaissance man Benjamin Yeoh. As well as writing and directing his own plays, Benjamin sits on the board of theatre companies and develops sustainable development strategies for major international organisations in the arts and elsewhere. It’s Benjamin’s voice that you’ll hear first.


Benjamin: Great so let’s see what question number one holds for us. We have what does being responsible for our environment mean to you?


Mya-Rose: Everyone’s looking at me! I don’t know I feel like I interpret it differently because I do a lot of environmental campaigning and I feel like part of for me being responsible for nature and the environment is sort of campaigning and going out and raising awareness and telling people that there are problems and issues! But I think I also increasingly have also engaged with things on a much smaller more local level so like my charity that I run is a very grassroots project so we’re literally working with kids from the local area. I’m talking a lot to them about how they can do re-wilding in their garden or their local park and I think working to create a population who are engaged with nature and who care about nature and environmental issues is such an important first step. I don’t know, what about you guys?


Ellie: For me it means trying to tread as lightly as I can on the world, to live as modestly as I can, to produce the smallest amount of carbon that I can like just thinking about the consequences of my actions I suppose and that is difficult to do that on a daily basis. But I think that’s where I start from and trying to remain mindful of that through everything I do.


Benjamin: I have two hats or two ways of looking at that. I suppose on is my theatre making hat and another is my investment hat which have both got slightly different theories of change. So one is that personal leadership, try and know your own footprint a little bit, talk about local things, talk about what people can really do and when you think about theatre making and think about how you’re going to produce this show, are there sensible things you can do which probably 10 or 20 years you probably wouldn’t do, like why are you making your props new when you could do something which is maybe more circular? Then there is the systems impact which has been increasingly part of my work, whether in investment or in theatre making and I think in theatre making it’s often both of you who are really involved in this and it’s the stories that we tell ourselves and what are artists uniquely able to do? Well they can live their life in a sustainable fashion but they can tell the stories which change us and I guess when I was younger I was maybe a little bit more like oh you know what do movements do? What do protest movements do and things and actually as I’ve got older you can think back to suffragettes or anti slavery movements and things and you get to modern days and actually those movements have been very catalytical and those are the stories we tell ourselves. And actually it’s the same in the investment world about nudging the system or nudging the companies and so for me there’s an individual threat which is important and it’s important to live your life how you want and to show others but then actually you may not be able to do that where you are but you could still be nudging across the stories and the systems and so when it comes to making or producing it but it also might be the stories you choose to tell and things like that. So now when people ask me I think well those two bits and depending on where you are and how you’re thinking about it it might nudge to one or the other.


Ellie: Different levels of engagement from the personal to I guess more systemic change.


Benjamin: Exactly. And I think it’s partly as I’ve got a bit older as well I’ve met more young people who have got this climate anxiety and they feel like am I doing enough or I’m not doing enough or there’s nothing I can do and I feel like this for a lot of problems and challenges that humans have, the individual can only do so much right? It’s the systems and things but you can do something towards it, you don’t have to feel helpless and you can see that through an individual lens and that’s fine and that’s also fine as well because you might just be selling stories or performing or inspiring in some other way. They’re both valid mechanisms and we probably need more of both of them and you can’t do 100% of either all the time and you don’t need to get too down about it. 


Mya-Rose: I do think there’s such a split, I do see there’s two groups of people that I know and one side is the people who do very deeply feel all the environmental issues going on and are very anxious and I know lots of people who would feel incredibly guilty if they drive a car one day instead of cycling and stuff like that, down to the minutiae of their day to day activity and then on the other side of things of people who literally do not think about their environmental footprint, aren’t doing all the little things we think we need to do and I think both - obviously to different extents but both of those things are very unhelpful and I know people who do not care and I think actually creating a handful of very decisive very helpful things is much better than making people feel incredibly guilty about the nuances of their lifestyle and so for me I advocate a lot the bigger things so like switching bank or looking into where your money’s being invested and stuff like that or sort of looking into where your pension fund is being invested because so many of those are involved in fossil fuels and things where it is individual action and individual change but it’s also tackling what is a genuine systemic issue as well. 


Ellie: I think it’s fine to feel that anxiety but to use it as a force for good, to challenge it into those wider systemic campaigns. I think that’s what I do and I think you have to - for me definitely it feels important to try to live my values to a certain extent because otherwise the other activity that I’m doing I don’t feel I can do that with any integrity if I’m not trying to keep my own house in order as well but I definitely agree the two channels are important and interact and that they drive each other forward.


Benjamin: And they definitely amplify. The way you live your life makes your message stronger, I do think that. That’s one of the things that is so impressive about Greta and a lot of activists like you guys really, the way you live your life and talk about it I think amplifies the message that you have. If you’re able to do that and that’s part of it I think that’s really great. Who’s got number two? 


Ellie: Okay. We’re onto question number two. Let’s see what we’ve got. How do you embed ideas of responsibility within your practice/work?


Benjamin: So I’ll take the two hats briefly on theatre making and then on investment work and I’ve sat on the non-exec level for a variety of theatre companies, currently Improbable, previously Coney and Talawa and over that time environmental issues have grown and part of that is stories in the work that you want to make so that’s tilted and actually it’s tilted also to thinking about young people and other aspects, you can call it diversity and things like that, a lot of that is intersectionality within this, you can’t tackle one or the other so that’s shaped the kind of work we make but also at the board level when you’re thinking about strategy and these things, other thoughts have come in. So net zero commitments and what does it mean to be net zero and that’s how you’re making your work, should we make it this way, should we be travelling so much, are there other ways of making our work which is more circular or things like that and I think both of those elements over the years has come out and then in my personal practice I do a series of what we call now performance lectures and that’s definitely been really low-fi in terms of the materials and resources that I use and one of the reasons for that has been thinking of this and one of the topics I talk about has been around climate and another is about death and health and some of that intersectionality. In investment world that’s actually got quite complicated as well but a lot of that is to do with are company’s thinking about net zero, are they prepared and planned and then a lot of my world is around companies who may be in open good faith, so you might not be talking about the most difficult actors, let’s put that to one side for a moment, and engaging with them because a lot of the real world change happens from convincing management or teams or companies who often have a lot of other stakeholders or employees or their customers wanting them to do that as well and engaging for them to go on a more sustainable path and that is also intersectional with how they might be treating their employees, how they might be thinking about diversity and inclusion, what countries they’re working on. So a lot of this is under the rubric of environmental social governance or sustainability and it’s quite complicated but one of the primary drivers there we are using is engagement because actually at the end of the day a lot of the person in the street, the lady in the pub owns an investment through their pension or through the government or through something and ultimately people are the owners of companies or businesses or they are the owners of investments and even if it’s via your work place like Arts Council, you might have a pension through that and actually through that you have that thing. So ultimately companies are beholden to those owners who are us and so nudging them down that pathway is quite an important part of what it means as well as perhaps the innovation front so trying to create the tools and things that we don’t have yet already.


Mya-Rose: I think it’s in the sphere of environmental campaigning, responsibility is quite a weird thing because I spend a lot of time in youth climate change circles and it’s essentially a big group of people trying to solve an issue who had very little to do with creating it and yet there is this big sense of responsibility in terms of if not us then who? I have people asking me a lot what gives you hope? Are you optimistic, are you pessimistic? And I feel like for me it’s not really about that, it is this sense of we must try and do what we can to try and make things better and I think especially there’s been such an increase in conversations around intersectionality in terms of environmentalism and so I think increasingly you’re seeing people from the west and from countries like the UK sort of feeling that essentially the west is very responsible for climate change and yet it’s countries in the global south like Bangladesh where my family’s from that are currently experiencing the brunt of current environmental collapse and so it’s almost taking responsibility for our colonial legacy and trying to do what we can to help those people and help those countries. But I guess on a much smaller level in terms of my charity work we’re working with a lot of kids from black and Asian backgrounds, we’re working with a lot of kids from communities who are struggling quite a lot and like one of the reasons I set up the charity in the first place was partially because as someone who is not white and spent a lot of time growing up in the countryside I want to share that with kids, I wanted them to be able to enjoy the outdoors but I was also deeply aware of just how important it is to spend time in nature and the environment. I’d see first hand the importance of mental health and wellbeing in particular and it was during this period that I set it up that the NHS started doing green prescribing and things like that. So it was also this feeling of helping kids to get outside from the communities who statistically are disproportionately struggling with mental illness the most and yeah I think that side of things isn’t discussed as much but for me on a personal level I feel like that’s incredibly important.


Ellie: It is difficult to answer without talking about some of the activities that I’m involved in because I think as an artist I definitely went on a journey where when I started to realise about 15 years ago the extent of the climate crisis that I didn’t necessarily want to be investing all of my time in art anymore and I wanted to be channelling that energy into getting involved in campaigning so I specifically started campaigning for better public transport because I saw that as a big barrier for enabling people to make more sustainable travel choices when our public transport system is so expensive and dysfunctional. So I started to invest a lot of time in that and I think in terms of taking responsibility that was central to that really, it was identifying the problem but then taking steps to actually try and address that problem and solve the problem and the problem hasn’t been solved yet! But I’m continuing and the campaigning is expanding and it’s not just about public transport as well, you’re talking about pensions funds because I have a pension through the university where I work which is USS it’s the biggest in terms of its value so I’ve been involved in the divestment campaign for that as well and I think it’s that thing again of asking the questions, realising where the problems are and then taking responsibility by actually trying to get involved in trying to address them and that hasn’t been solved yet either but I’m continuing with the campaign and I think that I used to see the campaigning and my art practice as quite separate but I’m trying to find ways to kind of synthesise those two elements a bit more so you can use more creative tactics in campaigning, let the two disciplines learn from each other as well.


Mya-Rose: Question three: what does taking environmental action look like? Who want to go first?


Ellie: I think it’s actually really interesting Mya-Rose Rose to hear more about your work because it’s completely driven from the same place but we’re tackling completely different issues, both equally important in a way and I think it’s probably something in our personalities that have taken us to these different places and I think that yeah there’s definitely something in my personality that’s taken me down this passion for public transport and the characters I’ve met along the way and I think acquiring knowledge as I’ve been going has been an important part of that as well but I think that can be a problem in a way as well because I’ve become almost a bit too specialised in this area whereas before I think I had a much broader perspective around what needed to be done but it’s got more specialised the longer I’ve been doing it I think.


Mya-Rose: I think that makes sense though. You need people to be doing individual issues because if you have hundreds of people just going we want change and not saying what that change looks like that’s obviously not super helpful. I definitely think for me my idea of what activism is and what activism looks like has definitely shifted over the years. I think when I was younger I really liked all the big protests - which I still do attend - but sort of people going out and going out into the streets and telling our leaders that things need to change now and going to Downing Street and all of that kind of stuff, that felt like that was what was true activism to me versus I think actually I think as I get older I think that still has an incredibly important role but I actually think more community based action is incredibly important. Sometimes more important in terms of actually form the ground up building things that are better and that can literally be as simple as in my rural community the public transport system changing so people can actually not use their cars in the countryside, just things like that that make a difference and so I think maybe because I spend a lot of time working with young people as well who aren’t old enough to vote and get involved in local politics and that kinds of stuff, it’s thinking of ways that people can take action because I think doing stuff, especially physically doing stuff is so important in terms of fighting the disenfranchisement and eco-anxiety and all that kinds of stuff and so I’m literally very young kids I’m telling them to go out litter picking in the local community or my charity we do lots of tree planting events and things like that and for very young kids doing something with their hands genuinely helps so much in terms of the stress they feel at the state of the world and re-wilding or guerrilla gardening or all that kind of stuff. Thinking on a more local level is increasingly something attractive to me. Obviously now the big national campaigns continue in the background but I think we need both.


Benjamin: I agree. I think for me personally I’m really fortunate to meet quite a lot of influential people within their fields and for them it’s essentially influencing them. Perhaps if I think about theatre work, investment stakeholders and the board, non-exec type of stuff - at least in theatre work for me it’s a little bit about having those stories I referred to earlier. There’s a kind of term for it, a narrative plenitude and it’s also diverse voices and elements like that and it’s really apparent that given the scale of the challenge why are there so few climate stories, very broadly defined, and then when you think about climate stories of the global south and stories from these marginalised voices and part of the problem is when you’re not hearing that then that doesn’t weigh in. So a lot of my work around that is by trying to think about raising those stories up either through my own individual work or through the work I’m trying to support with others to do. Some of that is about then taking it to groups who might not otherwise hear it. So it was designed, I’ve done it in a couple little theatres but I took it to Aeon which is one of the biggest investment consultant insurers around, I took it to PWC, I’ve taken it to community churches, so to reach other groups, marginalised groups maybe but also other groups who might want to hear it to do that type of influence. And then in the investment world one of the other things is when you’re meeting with senior leaders who might be open but haven’t perhaps paid as much attention to this as you might have thought is making the argument to them. So part of that is just a good faith argument about why you should consider this and then one of the other steps that we do is link it to their actual stakeholders. So for instance in companies as I was saying they ultimately serve customers, employees and shareholders but actually shareholders are all of us sitting in this room, they are the people in the streets and so you have an onus to do somewhat what they are directing you to do and so this is where a lot of that comes through and closing that loop and influencing that at that level is quite important in terms of what action means for me. In a lot of organisations like this you have got this board at the top whether it’s in the charity space or in company space and they’re often three to twelve or three to fifteen people setting the strategic direction for the whole of that organisation. Say if there’s 12 if you can convince 8 of them this is a direction to go in so say they have no net zero commitment and you get them to say okay we should have a net zero commitment from the words it then starts, then the management team has got to think about what that means, set a strategy and do it. So part of my time is spent with people who sit on boards or when I meet boards or things like that saying you haven’t got a net zero, why is that? Is it something your stakeholders would want? Often the answer is yes and then maybe you should set that in place. So influencing a relatively small amount of people can actually often get quite a lot of change within that within the context because everything else around it is also pushing in that direction. In some of the podcasts I do I mix a lot of sustainability thinking with other arts thinking or maybe economic thinking. So for instance I had Chris Stark who is the chief executive of the UK Climate Change Committee talking about what UK climate policy needs to do and things like that to try and get this broad reach of actually there are things we know and there are things we know we can do and there is a gap from that and part of that gap is that if more people know them and influence those around them who might be more senior or not then that influence spreads like I guess my analogy’s always that stone in a pond and the ripple and some of that is just the conversations and stories that I have and increasingly over the later years more of those stories are broadly defined are amongst that. In some ways it’s also stories you don’t necessarily need to be… The cutting edge is a climate story, it’s actually just currently all stories are somehow climate related in many ways right, and is bringing some of those elements out in the same way that now in theatre it’s really common to have mobile phones on a stage or referenced because everyone has one right? It’s a part of things. 20 years ago it would have been really weird and now it’s not. I find it’s really weird how so many normal stories don’t have a thread of climate in it given that the thread of climate is in all these conversations. So if you just nudge those stories to reflect our own lived experience a little bit more you suddenly see that reflected in what we see and across all of those things. Alright question four, let’s see what we’ve got. We have: Why is it important for the cultural sector to take environmental action?


Ellie: Just to answer quickly I think it comes down to leading by example. I think we’ve got no choice but to take action because we do have a high profile in terms of influencing culture across society and if we’re not leading by example and again trying to get our own house in order then how can we expect anybody else to so I think it’s vital.


Mya-Rose: I also think it touched like what you were just saying about environmental issues being a thread that’s running through everyone’s lives now, I think one of the roles of the cultural sector is to reflect people’s lives and the things that are going on in the world and I suppose be a representation of that and a cultural influence in terms of that and so I think if anything it feels incredibly bizarre. It feels often like environmental issues are being dodged around or avoided and things like that maybe because it feels like it’s a bit of a downer maybe but the sector has such an important unique role in terms of communication in the way it reaches out to people and we can talk about the politics of it or the economics of it but at the end of the day the social cultural influence is probably the most important one in terms of the general public. 


Benjamin: Yeah I agree. I think if you look back in history and you look at these really big moments when humans have decided to do something, we decide laws. Laws are kind of meaningless to other creatures except that we impact them. Those laws and stories are things that humans tell each other and we believe them to be true because we’ve collectively made that belief. 200, 300 years ago we kind of collectively believed that slavery was okay but we changed the narrative of that because we came to realise that it was not and then you have women’s rights, you have disability rights, you have all of these things which really only came about through the power of culture. Now there are a lot of other elements needed to that but without that cultural change you are not going to get any of those so I think it’s uniquely the stories that we tell ourselves. As you’ve been saying what we reflect to one another - when we tell ourselves powerful new stories… We could even call them myths in the sense that humans have made these up, they’re not necessarily like physical laws of gravity that humans do to one another and when we believe these new stories which are better stories for us and for the world then change comes about and we get positive change and throughout history there are always segments which for lots of complicated reasons you never get 100% agreement between humans on anything but once you get a kind of change it flips over and now no one thinks slavery is a good thing, the vast majority are into women’s rights, disability rights, minority rights and things like that and that simply wasn’t true, even up to 100 years ago. Even 50 years ago where some of that… That’s not to deemphasise the huge battles and challenges still ahead in a lot of these things, still women’s rights and disability rights and all of those but it’s also that we’ve come some way and I would argue we’ve only come as far as we have because of the power of the cultural sector and the stories we tell ourselves, the art that we make, the activism we do, the lives that we lead in all of those aspects and if the cultural sector does not step up and play its part then I would contend that we won’t solve this challenge. I also think it’s potentially doable but isn’t doable without new stories, better stories, stories which reflect us. 


Ellie: Question five, let’s see what’s in the envelope. How do you/we best communicate to affect change? 


Benjamin: Oh… Well if I think of the individual way that I’m doing it part of it is actually with podcasts and story telling and weaving those stories which reflect us. I think that’s quite important and then actually I think it is those on the more individual basis, the things I’ve been alluding to. So when you meet more senior people in positions of influence and you make it real for them you can actually influence and affect that change and often it does come from a personal interaction. It’s someone who’s had a conversation or someone who’s listened to a podcast, someone who’s seen a piece of art, who’s gone on a protest, who’s been to an event, so it’s sometimes through that individual moment that you spark a lot of this systems change.


Mya-Rose: I feel like being an activist and a campaigner, so much of the job is communicating and I’ve heard someone refer to it as being a form of storytelling before which I absolutely agree with because you’re basically at all times figuring out the best way to package an issue to make people understand and to make people care. I spend a lot of time in the realm of social media and stuff like that which has its pros and cons but I think in some ways one of the things I find incredibly difficult is taking very complicated nuanced issues and packaging it down into like an instagram post or a blog post or a series of tweets, stuff like that. But, although I don’t think it’s the best way to be teaching people about these issues, I also think the power of social media is so unrivalled. I think the state of environmentalism and climate change campaigning today is absolutely due to social media and the influence of young people in particular and so I sort of carry on doing that sort of stuff. I think it basically boils down to everything I’m doing all the time. I always try and weave in stuff about all the things we have going on in the world in terms of the environment whether that’s climate change or biodiversity loss or species going extinct and things like that and that could be anything from radio or TV stuff to even like my book that came out last year Bird Girl like it’s not about climate change but the thread of climate change is running through it because it is something that is present in my life, especially as someone who loves nature. My way of communicating is slowly trying to drill into people’s heads that the stuff is all going on.


Benjamin: Maybe there’s no best way but Ellie?


Ellie: I think as I was saying earlier I’ve tried different tactics whether I’m working as an artist or an activist. I think with my art work humour has always been an important element of it that I’ve wanted my art work to be accessible  on lots of different levels and to contain quite important political messages but there’s something to hook your audience in before they get hit with that. So I talked a bit about trying to synthesise my art and activism together a bit more over the last few years and I’ve specifically done that by creating a musical about bus regulation - Bus Regulation The Musical - which is touring three different cities, Glasgow Manchester and Liverpool in collaboration with local public transport campaigns and that’s been a really good success because it’s been really appealing to lots of different age groups. Behind the music and the rollerskating there is an important history about how our public transport policy has changed over the last 60 years and how that’s left us with a really fragmented and expensive system as a lack of regulation over the bus network and giving solutions so the final  act is kind of looking into the future and projecting a vision of the future where public transport works seamlessly and the buses are all perfectly coordinated. It’s very upbeat and I think that’s really important as well because people can leave feeling inspired that change is possible and being connected to a local campaign where they can channel that.


Benjamin: Sounds like roller-skates are the key!


Ellie: Yeah the rollerskating is fun!


Mya-Rose: Yeah, I do think we need more stuff like that though because obviously I’m more in sort of the traditional campaigning sphere and it is all very traditional still. So much of the communication is literally almost the Attenborough style of voice to camera like we need you now to sign this petition to do that and do that and I feel like people are bombarded with things that are going on all the time and sort of going like this desperate plea and I think actually we do need more hope and we do need more optimism and I do think there has been a shift away from this already but sort of the trend of just constantly telling people we’re all doomed and it’s all terrible, turns out it doesn’t work very well and it just makes people feel miserable rather than ready to create change.


Ellie: I’m an optimistic person, I think that motivates me and I think just reflecting about what you were saying about the young people that you work with and the litter picking and stuff and how that can be really good for wellbeing and creating a sense that you can actually see change unfolding in front of your very eyes because you’re picking up the litter and you’re recycling it or disposing of it and then it’s no longer there so I think just being able to see that tangible change can also create hope and drive people forward to think that change is possible.


Benjamin: Let’s see what’s in six.


Mya-Rose: Number six, yeah. What’s an action that we can all take today?


Benjamin: So I’m probably going to quote Chris Stark on this. He would essentially say one of the things you need to do is use your vote or use what you’re thinking about politics. He even went as far as to say I’m not telling you how to use it but if this is important to you then that is one of the levers that we use as a system - as we’ve reflected today when I talked to some of my peers I tend to say where are you spending a lot of money? One or two of the items you’re spending a lot of money on, you should think about whether that’s sustainable because very broadly the more money you’re spending on something probably the larger impact it has. So that’s things like are you on a green tariff because that’s probably thousands of pounds in terms of your energy bill or a few hundred or if you’re buying something like a washing machine which is going to be a big cost, you don’t have to do it across every item but where you’re spending something big you should think about it and actually as both of you alluded to that’s where you often come to investments because you might not think about it but that’s probably one of your largest if not the largest pocket of money you’re directing so there’s that. So one would be use your vote or think about how you’re doing that politically both local or big and then there’s thinking about spending your money and then the last one at least on the cultural one would be just the stories that you tell, so that’s what comes to mind.


Ellie: And do we mean we as in us three or our listeners? 


Benjamin: You could do either! I hedged my bets!


Ellie: Well I think we should stay in touch! I’m all about that about like keeping communities going and building on connections with people that you meet. What can we all do today? Just get involved in a local campaign, channel your anger, channel your anxiety into a positive direction. I’ve found it really inspiring over the last few years while I’ve been working more locally in Glasgow just getting to meet people through activism and building a sense of community and that’s vital for actually being successful. Get stuck in if you have the time. What about you?


Mya-Rose: I would really really agree about getting involved in community projects and things like that. There’s probably something that is a bit of a pet peeve of any listener that actually there’s probably a campaign, go and get involved whether that’s public transport or stuff to do with your kids or stuff to do with housing locally, people will be talking about it so go and find those people and I really want to reiterate that where we put our money is so so important. I do rail against the idea of these issues being very individualistic or that any one person can either save or destroy the planet, all of the above, but I do think lifestyle choices are the only ones that I’ll mention is meat which I won’t go on about too much but it is really really really bad for the environment and I’m not advocating for everyone to become vegan or whatever but just reducing consumption of things that are bad for the planet is really helpful. I think people think you have to be the perfect environmentalist and go from 100 to 0 and actually going from 100 to 50 or 40 or 30 also really helps. I know I also said it but I also really advocate for people going out and just doing something with their hands. If you have a garden plant up some native species or put out a bird feeder or it’s going to be getting warm so put out some water. I have a friend who’s very into hedgehogs so maybe cut a hedgehog hole in your fence so they can roam around or do guerrilla gardening in your local park. I’m just such a big believer that doing something physically with your hands is so important in terms of feeling hopeful for the future. 


Benjamin: So we have on this question what support would best help artists and cultural organisations meet their environmental responsibilities? That’s quite a tough one. What support would best help artists and cultural organisations meet their environmental responsibilities? Well I can go first having looked at this both as an artist and sitting on a board. Broadly speaking of how I’ve explained it is that you can make a statement like a net zero commitment and that’s kind of your easier first step but then you need a support to make it into action and so I think some of the things you can do is there are resources for smaller organisations to essentially do a kind of carbon footprint so they can see where they are having the most impact so they can look at maybe not doing all of it as Mya-Rose Rose was saying you don't have to go from 100 to 0 but let's see these are the two or three things and you might end up, it’s often in your building or heating or your transport or something like that and then when you have identified that then help for that element. So if it is transport well, can we do something that is going to help them take transport, help them rent a bicycle or shift our location or work so that you’re not having to use a car or you can use public transport and actually there is a couple of organisations which will help you do this, like Julie’s Bicycle and the like but then you will need a little bit of support to put policy in place, particularly if you’ve never thought about how are we going to do our transport, then something like heating where you’re not in control of the building which doesn’t have a heat pump or whatever and there a little bit of help would be like well can we organise something to convince the landlord to do this. Or maybe food waste or whatever it is is in your impact in that and you can just deal with the three and the top of your list. But identifying where you’ve got a gap and then some help to sort of say well how do we lower that gap? But then I do think there is a whole other element where there could be if you’re very interested in this some sort of funding nudge on if we want to have these stories that we want to tell maybe that’s a competition or prize because I think a lot of these are already out there, maybe they’re not getting to people that you want or the stories which are not heard but if you want to do that some overall nudge of that. You’ve got some big innovation, you’ve got earth shock prizes and climate prizes and things like that, I haven’t really heard of that many prizes for climate inspired art or performance art or a campaign or a campaign of art or theatre piece or dance or wherever it is. But essentially some sort of prize or something like that where you know you can go for something would also be an idea I would have.


Mya-Rose: That was so thorough! No I agree with everything you just said so strongly. I think also maybe a shift in how we tell environmental stories as well but maybe it’s more about distribution maybe I’m just not seeing the more interesting pieces of art and culture which are being created. I don’t know, but everything you just said I’m like yes!


Ellie: I think having got funding from Arts Council England last year and been through that process, I actually think that we’re kind of going in the right direction in terms of changing value systems in the arts so it’s less about international Biennale’s travelling around the world and how we measure success in an artist’s career or this person’s shown in this far flung place and that far flung place and all the rest of it so they must be very successful and I felt there is a real focus on thinking globally and acting locally. Funding more community projects, funding very inclusive projects of different age groups and backgrounds can get involved in and I think that is all really important because that is going to have a knock on impact on the environment as well. 


Mya-Rose: Final question: Can you think of a piece of art or culture that successfully created a shift in public perception? First one that comes to mind immediately for me is I guess the obvious one that is all the Attenborough stuff that he’s been doing the last few years which obviously that’s very very mainstream media but Blue Planet was a very big moment for the environmentalists because suddenly everyone was talking about plastic pollution and saving our oceans. I think the Wild Isles programme that’s coming out at the moment is going to have a big shift in terms of the conversation around biodiversity loss in the UK. I think in terms of engaging the everyday person in the street with these big issues going on in the world is so important that we do have these really big beautiful programmes talking about the struggling side of things as well.


Benjamin: Yeah I think having gone on about how there needs to be more climate stories they have started to appear in more recent years across all of our forms and I think that is - I know there’s a lot of individuals who have been affected by that and we must be aggregating to a wider audience. I have a slightly different story which rings in my head which just goes back a generation for again it’s a more intersectional fight but I think about this because when you think about oh does it need to be an event which changes everyone’s minds and sometimes you’re just changing one person’s mind. So there was a white Texan lawyer, many decades ago, who saw a gig that Louis Armstrong was playing and he heard that gig and he said I’ve seen genius in a black man and I think the most important thing now is to fight for the rights of black people and he became a key part - in fact the most important legal part of Martin Luther King Jr’s legal team which actually then gave rights to that and so in a way that whole system change happened - and obviously there was a lot of other bits to it - but it actually sparked from a piece of individual change in this one lawyer. So yes sometimes it’s a big thing which affects everything and sometimes it’s that one snowflake or avalanche. And you can’t really tell where it’s going to be. Maybe you stopped at the bus stop and you had that one conversation and it was that person or maybe you’re a school kid and you sit outside your parliament and you start a movement. So sometimes these small things lead to big things as well as all of that and I think that humanity is too complex and random and beautiful and stupid to exactly know. So actually you can get some of these sparks of change from all of it but it tends to have started from something that a human has done - either for good or for ill within that. That’s the story I think about from a moment of artistic genius to a whole minority rights movement.


Ellie: Brilliant. Can I give my example? I think as an old school conceptual artist I don’t know if you guys known Hans Hack, German artist? I’m very inspired by him. One piece in particular from the 70s is called Rhine Water Purification Plant which was based on his experience of looking at the Rhine river and how much pollution was in there and the affect that was having on the fish and lots of fish were being killed and so he brought some of the water into a gallery space with the fish in it. The fish died in the water but because that was visible, taken out of the context where it was happening on a massive scale and put under a spotlight of course people thought what he was doing was really unethical but he was just throwing a spotlight on what was happening on a massive scale in the world. I think that that was a really powerful piece of work that affected change but some of the other stuff he did after that around looking at funding of the arts in America and particularly about how the tobacco industry was funding lots of art galleries and he did a lot of work to expose the hypocrisy in that and affected change. It was quickly seen as quite taboo to accept funding from tobacco companies in the arts and that struggle goes on and I think all the campaigns around fossil fuel funding in the arts have been really inspiring and really successful - particularly the Liberate Tate campaign. And most recently I’d say the most inspiring thing I’ve seen is the film about Nan Goldin All the Beauty and the Bloodshed which is about her campaign against the Sacklers and all the funding that they have put into the arts over the last 30 years or so to legitimise the pharmaceutical companies and she was amazingly successful. I think that’s a lesson to anyone who’s got a high profile is use it for good. 


Benjamin: Cool. That’s really good to chat with you all.


Mya-Rose: A nice conversation.


Benjamin: Nice to chat.